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RedditThe conventional wisdom is that with a new cold war looming and global conflicts upon us, Barack Obama needed a Vice-President with foreign policy experience. Most establishment pundits buy the view that Joe Biden provides it.
But on one of the key issues relating to US-Russian relations, Biden has been wrong. He has been a fervent champion of NATO expansion, a bipartisan policy whose disastrous consequences we witnessed in the recent and ongoing Russia-Georgia conflict. It is a policy that has done more to damage US-Russian relations than almost any other policy between the two countries.
When Biden traveled to Tbilisi during the conflict in August--presumably to flex and highlight his foreign policy credentials for the Obama campaign--he presumably told Georgia's President Mikheil Saakashvili of his support for that country's early admission to NATO. (The New York Times reports that the conflict did in fact boost Biden's veep prospects.) What does this say about Biden's foreign policy judgment that he would immediately reward Saakashvili's reckless behavior with a promise of early admission to NATO?
Doesn't Biden understand that in backing Georgian admission he would be going against NATO tradition not to admit countries with outstanding territorial conflicts? Or that NATO admission would be opposed by many leading NATO allies ? And that it would almost certainly forfeit any prospect of Russian cooperation on a range of issues--if not bring about Russian counter-measures. Does extending such a promise mean that Biden, along with John McCain, is prepared to take the US to war on behalf of Georgia? Biden's bombast may have given him satisfaction--and appealed to Saakashvili, a man who precipitated the bloodshed with his US-trained military's attack on South Ossetia on the night of August 7-- but was it the calibrated response we seek in an experienced foreign policy leader who understands importance of reducing, not heightening, geopolitical tensions?
As Ronald Steel reminds us in a judicious and must-read op-ed piece in Sunday's New York Times, "The first essential step for the leader of the Western alliance is to tone down the bombast and restore a dialogue with Russia....Second, we should shelve loose talk about bringing either Ukraine or Georgia into NATO--at least until we are willing to invite Russia itself." As Steel reminds us, "NATO is essentially still a cold-war military pact seeking a new identity that it has not yet found. Admitting these two former Soviet Republics would be interpreted by Moscow as anti-Russian provocation --and rightly so. And even if it didn't provoke a new Cold War, it would create serious tensions within NATO itself."
Before the consensus emerges that Biden adds "foreign expertise to ticket," as the New York Times's headline this morning declared, shouldn't we reflect on the nature and quality of expertise and experience? Good judgment, informed experience and valuable expertise would guide leaders to rethink policies like NATO expansion that have jeopardized our national security and damaged US-Russian relations.
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Katrina vanden Heuvel
Thoughts on politics, current affairs, riffs and reflections on what’s in the news and what’s not--but should be.
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Well, we know the basic vanden Heuvel/Cohen paradigm for "how to deal with Russia"...
and it's basically "What can we do to make you like us?"
Posted by Maskdelta at 08/24/2008 @ 8:45pm
by 2HAPPY at 08/24/2008 @ 8:49pm ...
Very funny, Hap...
Good call KVH... Biden isn't perfect like the rest of us...;^)... There's sure to be more 'think tanking' on this subject, and I'll bet Biden proves to be a great team player...
But he is running for Vice President... not Secretary of State or National Security adviser... though Cheney seems to have set a few precedents...
Posted by ttr at 08/24/2008 @ 9:09pm
>>>Doesn't Biden understand that in backing Georgian admission he would be going against NATO tradition not to admit countries with outstanding territorial conflicts? Or that NATO admission would be opposed by many leading NATO allies ? And that it would almost certainly forfeit any prospect of Russian cooperation on a range of issues--if not bring about Russian counter-measures. Does extending such a promise mean that Biden, along with John McCain, is prepared to take the US to war on behalf of Georgia?<<<
You are right on the mark, KVH!
Biden may well help Obama get elected by providing the illusion of foreign policy expertise to the Joe-six-pack voter. But let's hope Obama gets real once in office and doesn't put himself in the same position as George Bush and hand over his foreign policy to his VP.
NATO must be dramatically revamped to be a helpful force in international relations. As long as it continues with its old Cold War mentality, the inevitable consequence is a new Cold War, which completely squanders the peace dividend of ending the old Cold War.
Putting interceptors in Poland instead of Russia, admitting former Soviet satellites to NATO "before" admitting Russia itself, is all part of the old worn out thinking that Obama needs to challenge if we are to ever have a meaningful peace with reduced tensions around the world and stop this rush to a new Cold War in its tracks.
The only beneficiaries of a new Cold War is the US military industrial complex, big oil and right-wing militaristic AIPAC Jews, and this comes at the expense of the US taxpayer and other economic priorities. The US will continue to lose credibility and attract wrath toward Americans around the world if it continues to allow these special interest groups to dictate US foreign policy.
Posted by Metteyya at 08/24/2008 @ 10:37pm
and right-wing militaristic AIPAC Jews,-----Posted by Metteyya at 08/24/2008 @ 10:37pm
Given "right-wing militaristic AIPAC Jews" are born liars and might claim not to be, METTE.
Shouldn't we just hate all Jews just to be safe????
Posted by Maskdelta at 08/24/2008 @ 10:46pm
>>>Shouldn't we just hate all Jews just to be safe????
Posted by Maskdelta at 08/24/2008 @ 10:46pm<<<
No, MASK!
The VAST majority of Jews want peace in the Middle East, as this is in Israel's best long-term interest. You can't have peace as long as Israel continues to build illegal settlements on Palestinian land and starves the Palestinian people of needed food and supplies. It is also wrong-headed to have a double standard concerning nuclear weapons, as the existence of Israeli nukes is what drives countries like Syria and Iran to try to match Israel's nuclear capability.
J-Street and Jews Against War (JAW) do great work, and their work is far more mainstream and helpful than AIPAC.
Biden comes from the AIPAC wing of the Democratic party, and it is no surprise that they are delighted at his becoming Obama's VP. Biden gives AIPAC whatever they want, including the failure to hold Israel accountable for defaulting on billions of dollars in US loans. There is not one weapon system requested by Israel that he has questioned, and not one request for US taxdollars that he has attempted to balance against other economic priorities.
Most Jews are responsible people who care about America "and" Israel. AIPAC only cares about itself and its power, and would not think twice about bankrupting the US economy and sacrificing the lives of American troops if it meant Israel would have more power in the world and that they could continue to assert control over US foreign policy.
We must assert our right to control our own foreign policy, as the world has become too dangerous to do otherwise. If this means taking steps to insure the independence of news editors in the MSM to avoid lock-step coverage of international events, then this is what we must do.
Posted by Metteyya at 08/25/2008 @ 12:00am
Metteyya---you are right: the only winners in a new cold war are the military-industrial complex. Biden has always been a faithful pawn of the rightwing Zionist lobby that owns Congress. That is why Biden was the most influencial Democrat in promoting and pushing the Iraq invasion. The choice of Biden shows that Obama is eager to please the military-industrial complex and the Zionist lobby. This is not "change...this is more of the same shitty imperialist foreign policy. Obama has sold out.
Posted by philbq at 08/25/2008 @ 12:04am
So what do we are aimed to, put the Russians on their knees because we won the Cold War? There is two countries in the world that will not accept our unilateral military dominance: Russia and China. Are we really safer by doing so? What real military threat does Russia possess?
I can draw a parallel with Cuba. We isolated them and the predictible result was stubborness and less democracy. Guess what? Russia will be the same except that the nukes are there. Big NO, we have to have a lot of patience with Russia to integrate it fully to the world community, we must not provoke a wounded lion, that's a bad thing to do. Small countries like Georgia, eager as they are to be part of NATO or even the European Community maybe, have to reconcile their grand ambitions with the pragmatic concept that they are neighbors of this giant and might as well above all keep the best diplomatic relations, else it is Armaggedon. Remember, regional problems of small countries like Serbia originated the 1st World War....
This is not a bipolar world anymore. Let's not promote NATO so much, but instead universal agreements through the United Nations for peace in this world. We will not relinquish our power but use it instead for the benefit of the whole world.
Posted by Frank42 at 08/25/2008 @ 12:36am
>>>Obama has sold out.
Posted by philbq at 08/25/2008 @ 12:04am<<<
I don't know if Obama has sold out, but he certainly needs to pay attention if he wants to avoid another Cheney-like scenario with his VP running foreign policy.
The MIC, Big Oil, and AIPAC want to continue their dominance regardless of which party controls the White House. They have been pushing for a VP they can count on, and it appears that they succeeded.
I found the "timing" of the Georgia invasion of South Ossetia interesting, as this clearly influenced the choice of Obama's VP. And when you look at who the players are in contolling the actions of the Georgia government, it is the same MIC-Big Oil-AIPAC crowd.
Here is an interesting article from the Mideast Times which you would NEVER see in the mainstream American press:
Israel's Dog in the fight in the Georgian War By MEL FRYKBERG (Middle East Times) Published: August 18, 2008
JERUSALEM -- Israel was considering last weekend to suspend all further military shipments to embattled Georgia, fearing possible retaliation with Russia which is on good terms with two of the Jewish state's arch enemies in the region, Syria and Iran.
At the same time, approximately 200 Israeli-Georgians protested outside the American Embassy in Tel Aviv urging the United States to take stronger action against Russia's military intervention in Georgia and the breakaway enclaves of South Ossetia and Abkhazia.
But the large Jewish-Georgian community in Israel was not the only group with a dog in the fight as the war between Georgia and Russia appeared to be intensifying, despite intensive diplomatic mediation by U.S. and European diplomats, urging both the Russian and Georgian leadership to implement a ceasefire.
Posted by Metteyya at 08/25/2008 @ 12:55am
Israel has been involved in both training and arming the Georgian military for a number of years and the fears within Israel's military establishment was that Russia, which already supplies arms to both Syria and Iran, could well decide to increase the quantity and quality of these supplies.
Israel's immediate concern is that Russia will proceed with the sale of the S-300 anti-aircraft missile system to Iran, which would help Iran defend its nuclear installations from aerial attack.
This would be particularly problematic if Israel decides to carry out a preemptive raid on Iran's nuclear facilities as it has been threatening to do for months now.
Israel's military complex has supplied Georgia with some $200 million worth of equipment since 2000. This has comprised rockets, night-vision communications and intelligence surveillance equipment, including Skylark mini-drones and Hermes 450 unmanned aerial vehicles. Israel also upgraded Georgia's Su-25 ground attack fighters.
A Russian jet shot down an Israeli-made drone being operated by the Georgians earlier this year.
The mayor of Tel Aviv, Ronnie Milo and his brother Shlomo (a former director-general of Israel Military Industries), were key players in the Georgian arms sales while senior IDF officers, including Maj. Gen. Israel Ziv and Brig. Gen. Gal Hirsch, were directly involved in training Georgian army infantry battalions.
Hirsch, who was a senior commander in the 2006 Lebanon war, served in an advisory capacity.
One of the Israeli advisers to the Georgian military, who wished to remain anonymous, had befriended some of the Georgian soldiers during his time there and was invited to some of their homes for dinner. He told the Israeli daily Haaretz:
Posted by Metteyya at 08/25/2008 @ 12:57am
"We have their phone numbers, but we haven't been able to reach them. These are people we know and we are all hoping for their success,"
Meanwhile, other Israeli trainers are trying to glean from news reports on the movements of the Georgian army whether their trainees succeeded in internalizing Israeli military techniques.
Two key Georgian ministers are Jewish and fluent in Hebrew. The Georgian Defense Minister Davit Kezerashvili, 30, once lived in Israel after he immigrated to the country as a boy before eventually returning to Georgia.
Georgian Minister of Reintegration Temur Yakobashvili praised the Israel Defense Forces for its role in training Georgian troops and said Israel should be pleased with its military might, during an interview with Israeli Army Radio.
"Israel should be proud of its military which trained Georgian soldiers," Yakobashvili stated in fluent Hebrew.
He added that this training provided Georgia with the know-how needed to defend itself against Russian forces as he explained how a small group of Georgian soldiers had been able to wipe out an entire Russian military division due to the training, despite the inferiority of Georgia's defense forces when compared to Russia's.
"We killed 60 Russian soldiers," said Yakobashvili last week. "The Russians have lost more than 50 tanks, and we have shot down 11 of their planes. They have sustained enormous damage in terms of manpower."
However, Israeli ties to Georgia go further than the arms trade and military training business. Another Israeli interest in Georgia has revolved around the rich oil and gas deposits in the region.
Posted by Metteyya at 08/25/2008 @ 12:58am
Jerusalem is keen to see the Caspian oil and gas pipelines reach the Turkish terminal port of Ceyhan, rather than the Russian network after Russia turned down a previous Israeli request.
To this end intense negotiations are currently underway between Israel, Turkey, Georgia, Turkmenistan and Azerbaijan for pipelines to reach Turkey and onward to Israel's oil terminal at Ashkelon and to its Red Sea port of Eilat. From there, supertankers can carry the gas and oil to the Far East through the Indian Ocean.
Finally, Israel works hard to increase the number of Jews immigrating to the country in an effort to lessen the "threat" of a demographic time-bomb which sees Israeli-Arabs and Palestinians in East Jerusalem with their higher birth rate as a possible threat to Jewish majority.
To this end the Jewish Agency, which arranges immigration, has organized flights into Georgia to evacuate Jews trapped in the cities as fighting intensifies. Indeed, Israel's national airline El Al was practically the only airline to fly into Georgia's capital Tbilisi after other flights were suspended or grounded.
Several hundred Jews were subsequently evacuated to Israel as new immigrants.
Posted by Metteyya at 08/25/2008 @ 12:59am
Katrina Vanden Huevel, Zero,
Slam VP candidate Joe Biden in one article for his flaws and weaknesses in foreign policy that could cause another Cold War or WWIII and then the next article work hard to get him elected? Is this bi-polar lunacy at work or what? Well, far from the cry of 2006 when you claimed (falsely of course) that you would not support any politician who did not have as part of his or her platform bringing a speedy end to the Iraq War you are now supporting two Neo-Liberal fools who wish to continue said war and start new wars beyond that.
As Zero said, he is lucky to be born white and English speaking, otherwise, he would most likely be dead by now from American dropped bombs. And the sad part of it all is that a person like yourself, who is a Mother no less, will vote for individuals who believe in the unlimited slaughter of innocents around the world for worthless causes and illogical reasons. How do you sleep at night, KVH, knowing that you support the makers and the deliverers of a bloodthirsty imperalism not witnessed since the days of the Roman Empire?
Posted by POSEIDON at 08/25/2008 @ 02:42am
John Nichols,
Sucking up to Joe Biden already, huh? I can't imagine why. Obama/Biden will be in the dust-bins of history after this election is over. John Insane McCain will be the next El Presidente of Pax Americana...............
Posted by POSEIDON at 08/25/2008 @ 02:44am
John Nichols,
"Sucking up to Joe Biden already, huh? I can't imagine why."
Posted by POSEIDON at 08/25/2008 @ 02:44am
Don'be too hard on JN Possie. It's a hard job trying to keep us all happy.
"If any further evidence was needed to disqualify Joe Biden from consideration for the Democratic presidential nomination -- or for the vice presidential nod, or the secretary of state slot that he is actually seeking with his vanity campaign -- it came when the Delaware senator appeared Sunday on NBC's "Meet the Press."
Host Tim Russert -- the man who knowingly nodded along as Vice President Dick Cheney explained in March of 2003 that our troops would be "greeted as liberators" in Iraq -- said, "MoveOn.org, a liberal Democratic group, is taking an ad in the New York Times, and this is what it's going to be: 'General Petraeus Or General Betray Us? Cooking The Books For The White House.' What's your reaction to that?"
"I don't buy into that," responded Biden, whose campaign for the Democratic nomination is running neck-and-neck with that of former Alaska Senator Mike "These Other Candidates Scare Me" Gravel. Before hearing a word of the testimony from General David Petraeus, the commander of US forces in Iraq, Biden declared, "This is an honorable guy. He's telling the truth."
By issuing a pre-dated "blank check" to Petraeus, Biden makes it clear that he is not up to his current job. He is certainly not prepared to move up to the presidency"
from: Joe Biden to Petraeus: "Lie to Me"
posted by John Nichols on 09/10/2007 @ 10:33am
Posted by lrjones4 at 08/25/2008 @ 05:17am
Metteyya---You are right on about the Israeli involvement in Georgia. And the U.S. mainstream press, always protective of Israel, would not air such a story. The picking of Biden shows that the mantra of "change" was just words. Biden represents the worst of traditional politics : cold-warrior imperialist, corporate whore, AIPAC puppet,etc. Obama is just old wine in a new shiny bottle.
Posted by philbq at 08/25/2008 @ 07:26am
And again, how EXACTLY do we tell the difference between the PPPs (Pissy Pure Progressives)....and Republican posers?
Posted by Maskdelta at 08/25/2008 @ 09:09am
A couple salient questions.... Will Biden continue with his senate re-election campaign? What are the pertinent laws in the state of Delaware? Is the governor of Delaware a Democrat? Is the governor of Delaware up for re-election in 2008?
Posted by bednarik at 08/25/2008 @ 09:19am
Posted by Darin_the_Troll at 08/25/2008 @ 09:27am
Well, keep in mind, Darin, that after it was shown that impeachment WOULDN'T distract the Dems ....I may have been realistic enough to say it wasn't going to happen (and HSUB wasn't)...
but I sure would have liked to see it happen....si-mo both Dubya and Dick.
For sheer incompetence (if you want to take any diabolical element out of it and put the "best spin" on it), they should have been run out of office.
War...economy...Federal management...fiscal matters....maybe not "high crimes and misdemenors", but almost as bad.
I just saw the reality of the situation and HSUB didn't like his little fantasy balloon popped.
Posted by Maskdelta at 08/25/2008 @ 10:21am
935 lies since 9/11.
Documented by the Center for Public Integrity.
Not errors.
Intentional deception.
Yet so many of you respond to being lied to with spin.
Curious.
Posted by drhammer at 08/25/2008 @ 10:43am
Ruminations concerning Obama's veep choice should start with the acknowledgment of two basic facts:
1. Obama is not Bush.
2. Biden is not Cheney.
Posted by drhammer at 08/25/2008 @ 10:48am
>>>1. Obama is not Bush.
2. Biden is not Cheney.
Posted by drhammer at 08/25/2008 @ 10:48am <<<
I agree with #1; not so sure about #2.
Posted by Metteyya at 08/25/2008 @ 11:08am
lrjones54,
I disagree. I have to be tough on John Nichols as I am on Katrina Vanden Heuvel for her gross betrayal of her readers and supporters. She, like Amy Goodman, like Tom Hayden and others want to be "players" within the Democratic party and no matter how many Republican policies the Democrats put in place, the Nation magazine and its staff will continue to sell out the American people for their "access" and influence. They will regret the day that they did not put pressure on the Democrats and will read'em and weep when Insane McCain wins in November.
Posted by POSEIDON at 08/25/2008 @ 11:10am
Posted by Maskdelta at 08/25/2008 @ 10:21am
"So why was I surprised when our leaders couldn't find the weapons of mass destruction? They couldn't find 'em. Nobody could find 'em. And nobody, takes responsibility. Are you fuckin' kidding me? If that's the case, then, you know, make me the head of CIA, because I can watch TV and guess with the best of em. I believe that the CIA is truly filled with frustrated weathermen. How is there no accountability? How is that fuckin' possible? They failed on a massive fuckin' level! And there's nobody- nobody taking responsibility?! Are you fucking kidding me?! If you had somebody you worked with who just fucked up like these idiots did, they'd be gone! What if I came out here tonight, and I said, 'I'm not really a comic! I'm a magician! Watch me make this rabbit disappear,' and then I just rip the fur off of it. Close enough, fuckers!"
-Lewis Black
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 08/25/2008 @ 11:53am
Ruminations concerning Obama's veep choice should start with the acknowledgment of two basic facts: 1. Obama is not Bush. 2. Biden is not Cheney. Posted by drhammer at 08/25/2008 @ 10:48am
Here Here!
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 08/25/2008 @ 11:54am
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 08/25/2008 @ 11:54am
I don't know what's up with METTEYYA since the Biden pick.
It's like he saw a tiny chink in Obama's golden armor and suddenly goes from "He can do no wrong" to "He'll be the same ol', same ol'".
It's an inevitable occurance with the cultish hero-worship types. There's this "one thing" that they CAN NOT do...and if they do it, then suddenly the idolizers turn on their idol.
Not sure what it would be for FRANK...maybe Hillary divorcing Bill, maybe nothing could turn him against her.
I think Gore would have to axe-murder Tipper for HSUBFOOLS to turn on him...though if he put her in an "eco-friendly compost heap"...he might be willing to give him a pass!
METT's obsession with AIPAC (AND don't forget the "Jewish-owned Media who got Arsenio fired") and the fact Biden isn't some frothing-at-the-mouth "anti-Zionist" appears to be enough for him.
Posted by Maskdelta at 08/25/2008 @ 12:10pm
Posted by Darin_the_Troll at 08/25/2008 @ 12:06pm
That's true, Darin. But in the Reagan-Bush case they were running against a stagflation economy...high gas prices...a crises in the Middle East....and somebody giving us "four more years"....
Now....who's doing that THIS time?????
Posted by Maskdelta at 08/25/2008 @ 12:12pm
if Carter was a spectacular failure, so was Reagan. he should have been impeached and everyone in Washington knew it. I suspect in the second Alzheimer term he was run by Bush Sr. like Bush Jr. was and is run by Cheney. of course the term spectacular failure is forever owned by George W., having snatched it away even from Nixon.
Posted by emile duBois at 08/25/2008 @ 1:06pm
Posted by Maskdelta at 08/25/2008 @ 12:10pm
MASK,
"Change we can believe in" has absolutely no meaning if you have the status quo on your ticket and you hand over your foreign policy to him, just like George Bush did with Dick Cheney.
And, no, I am not looking for an ANTI-Zionist, I am looking for a normal person who cares deeply about this country, and would not allow any foreign government or power to hijack US foreign policy.
Standing up to special interest lobbies, and not making exceptions for AIPAC, the MIC, and Big Oil, is what I am looking for, and Biden simply doens't pass that test.
You have always been wrong about me MASK concerning "idolizing" Obama. All I wanted was substantive change so that this country can live up to its ideals and potential as a great nation.
Obama seemed to be of the same view, but this latest capitulation shows something different; it shows a politician incapable of advancing if he stands up to corrupt influences over our government. This has been my gripe with American politics my entire life and the core reason for my getting out of politics.
If Obama is not able to overcome these corrupt forces, then no one can, and that is real cause for sadness and regret concerning the future of this country.
Posted by Metteyya at 08/25/2008 @ 1:16pm
Posted by Metteyya at 08/25/2008 @ 1:16pm
Weren't you the one saying last week that it didn't matter WHO he put on his ticket because the VP has no power? Why all of a sudden the backpedal?
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 08/25/2008 @ 1:39pm
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 08/25/2008 @ 1:39pm
You are misquoting me, CCC.
I said the VP should NOT have much power, especially if he is just a backdoor for military contractors, oil companies, and right-wing Jews to steer US foreign policy in a direction that favors their interests.
The problem with the Biden pick is that it mirrors what we have already seen with Cheney with respect to foreign policy, and we need more of THAT kind of VP like a hole in our head.
Surely, Obama may have some secret plan to control his VP and insure it doesn't go the Cheney route, but I have yet to see this plan and therefore have very little confidence that he will succeed.
Posted by Metteyya at 08/25/2008 @ 1:48pm
I only have one number for you. $1B for Georgia. $1B. You got that right. $1B for One Billllllllion dollas.
Biden is a neo-liberal chosen to make the Clinton wing of the party happy. Here he is, handing tax payer money to Saakashvili to help develop the new cold war. Why the hell should we give Georgia $1B?
Freakin' warmonger.
Posted by ElyDog at 08/25/2008 @ 2:12pm
It should be obvious to any sane observer that Obama does NOT represent "change". He is just rhetoric. The pick of Biden cinches it. Obama is a silver-tongued illusionist. He would still be an improvement over the GOP nazis. But don't be deceived into thinking Obama is a "new" politician. He will still support bloated military budgets, an imperialist foreign policy, be subservient to the Zionist lobby and blind to the apartheid of Palestinians, and be owned by certain large corporations. Politics as usual.
Posted by philbq at 08/25/2008 @ 2:16pm
I am in complete agreement with this editorial. While not comparing the agendas of Georgia and Israel, their situations are similar. If the Russians are not in control of the breakaway provinces, Georgia, like Israel, will be dealing with hostile Militias from those provinces. It will be a bloody mess. Israel has been, unsuccessfully, dealing with hostile Palestinian groups for sixty years. Israelis might not be the best trainers for the Georgian Army. After the bombardment of the South Ossetian Capital, there is no way that the breakaway provinces will peacefully become a part of Georgia.
Posted by P. J. Casey at 08/25/2008 @ 2:31pm
Posted by Metteyya at 08/25/2008 @ 1:16pm
METTE, do me and FROSTY need to go back and re-post your gushing posts over Obama?
You made the man out like "Reagan of the Left" (maybe even a tad like the "Messiah" the Righties try to say EVERYBODY thinks of Obama as)...
and now you're "just another supporter"?
Noooooo....we've got a few die-hard cultists around her...FRANK with Hillary, HSUB with Gore...and you with Obama.
Just seems it took Joe Biden to make you give up on it all. Odd?...he's hardly Zell Miller, Joe Lieberman, or even Ben Nelson.
I guess it's just that he said something nice about Israel....and since Day One and "Jew-run Media who got Arsenio fired", we ALL know you have a slight "issue" with "AIPAC" and "Media run by certain types".
Posted by Maskdelta at 08/25/2008 @ 2:37pm
Posted by Darin_the_Troll at 08/25/2008 @ 2:42pm
Seems Darin, Matt Bai is atleast admitting that racism WILL play some part....which is a lot more than some on the Right are willing to admit.
Though talk of "Magic" and "Half & Half"...is quite rampant here on occasion.
Posted by Maskdelta at 08/25/2008 @ 2:50pm
Posted by Maskdelta at 08/25/2008 @ 2:37pm
Die-hard cultist?
Again, you've got me twisted, MASK!
Obama has an enormous opportunity to bring about substantive progressive change, but there are REAL counter-forces that currently control our government through the campaign finance scheme, and through the media where their operatives are well placed.
ANY observer of the news after 9/11, the build-up to the invasion of Iraq, and this latest story with Georgia cannot help but notice that the American media is in lock-step with the military industrial complex, big oil and AIPAC's point of view concerning these events.
Are you suggesting that there should NOT be any other point of view in the mainstream press but theirs? Or if someone merely point out the obvious concerning their influence over the media then THEY are the problem, not the corrupt influence over the news?
You are trying to do what Mearsheimer and Walt suggested in their work on the Israeli Lobby by pointing the finger at the messenger of the truth, when you should be pointing at the truth.
Shame on you MASK, as it is the corruption of politics and the media in this country that IS the problem, not people like me who merely point these things out.
Posted by Metteyya at 08/25/2008 @ 2:53pm
It amuses me no end that this particular site has such a high infestation of trolls.
I should just remind myself of that before I go poking around the bowels of the Comments...
Posted by libraridan at 08/25/2008 @ 3:23pm
Die-hard cultist?
Again, you've got me twisted, MASK!----Posted by Metteyya at 08/25/2008 @ 2:53pm
Okay, let's start with your Web Letters...
"Obama's biracial history will transform race and bring the races together, the greatest transformative effect of Obama is on the progressive movement and the Democratic Party because he is able to attract voters that we had once written off."----Metteyya Brahmana
Santa Cruz, CA 01/26/2008 @ 4:35pm
After 400 years, OBAMA is going to "bring the races together"?
That's a bit more than "he's a good guy", METT.
As for your Jewish "problem"...after endless talk of AIPAC....AND "right-wing Jew agenda"....AND "Jewish-run Media"...
your "Some of my best friends are Jewish" line sort of rings hollow.
Posted by Maskdelta at 08/25/2008 @ 3:50pm
Posted by Maskdelta at 08/25/2008 @ 3:50pm
MASK,
You've got it wrong!
I like Obama but HATE corruption of our political system and of our media!
I am not going to shy away from pointing out corruption just because the corrupter is a right-wing Jew. Corruption is corruption, and I dislike it no matter who is doing it.
Posted by Metteyya at 08/25/2008 @ 3:58pm
This is the dumbest comment board I have ever seen, which contrasts strongly with the good articles. It almost seems like sabotage.
Posted by Steve C. at 08/25/2008 @ 4:36pm
I agree. When you go over to Mother Jones and see people posting who look down on the labor movement and anarchism (Mother Jones was both) or on this site and see people who trash the left on a regular basis (FrankGrits being #1) you have to wonder.
Are they lost? Or do they just like to waste time on pointless arguments?
Posted by ElyDog at 08/25/2008 @ 5:07pm
I agree with ElyDog. These clowns remind me of the right wing talkies who know it all, hate it all, and berate it all. It's not the comment board that is dumb, it's these righties masquerading as liberals.
Posted by montanadon at 08/25/2008 @ 5:20pm
KVH glosses over the truth once again for the Dems. It is true that NATO's "Drang nach Osten" and the war on Serbia along with the dismantiling of Yugoslavia may be far more disastrous in the long term than the war on Iraq. BUT it was Katrina's precious Dems, in this case Bill Clinton and company, who initiated and developed those policies. Bush has only carried on. And now Katrina and crowd are in Denver to crown Obama who has been routinely voting funds for the war on Iraq. But after endorsing the prowar Kerry and marginalizing the antiwwar Nader in 2004, what's new? Just more damage wrought by Katrina. john walsh
Posted by jvwalshmd at 08/25/2008 @ 5:22pm
After I get done marking my Ignore list with the whackos from this message board, I'm guessing there won't be much left...pardon the pun.
Posted by montanadon at 08/25/2008 @ 5:44pm
Someone mentioned that Biden satisfies the Joe Sixpacks who think that he is knowledgeable about foreign affairs and I have to admit that I am a Joe Sixpack, because I didn't realize that Joe Biden was a proponent of sticking NATO in Russia's face, which I have always considered a stupid and agressive affront to the Russians. NATO should have been abandoned after the cold war was over, but there are always those who cannot help looking for enemies instead of making friends. If NATO is relevant then why isn't Russia offered membership as well. Apparently America needs its enemies to keep us tax paying suckers funding military and weapons as opposed to education, health care and infrastructure repair. One can only hope that Biden, who in most aspects is a decent politician, gains some better perspectives on our role in the world now that his prospect for more responsibilities has been enhanced. Maybe we can help him if he is willing to listen.
Posted by leemiller38 at 08/25/2008 @ 6:04pm
I am relieved to know I'm not the only one who noticed the right wing nuts on here, lol. Is this there idea of a life?
Posted by Steve C. at 08/25/2008 @ 6:41pm
Posted by leemiller38 at 08/25/2008 @ 6:04pm
Hi LEE,
If you are Joe-sixpack, then we need a lot more voters like you!
Most Joe-sixpacks do not read The Nation magazine and barely watch the news at all, save for sports scores.
Unfortunately, the American electorate is not that informed, and most of their news sources are mainstream and influenced by special interests.
While I still agree with KVH, and think Biden is on the wrong track concerning NATO admission for Georgia, I did have a chance to spend an awful amount of time with Biden's voting record to day (35 years!), and wanted to temper some of my earlier comments concerning his blanket support of AIPAC.
Like Obama, I found that Biden did NOT support Kyl-Lieberman, an AIPAC initiative to declare a branch of Iran's army a terrorist organization, and in 1998 voted against an AIPAC measure, the Iran Missile Proliferation Sanctions Act.
He also has said as recently as last year that Iran is not a nuclear threat to the United States and that he did not believe they had a nuclear weapons system under production.
Even though these are relatively mild departures from AIPAC's line, in Congress this is huge since the expectation is that you will vote 100% AIPAC all of the time or your commitment to Israel is questioned.
I still have concerns about Biden's "I am a Zionist" comment, because if this means he believes that the state of Israel has some sort of "religious" right to violate international law and establish a Jewish state on Palestinian land in the West Bank and Gaza, he could not possibly help Obama solve the Middle East conflict.
Posted by Metteyya at 08/25/2008 @ 8:16pm
"Most Joe-sixpacks do not read The Nation magazine and barely watch the news at all, save for sports scores. Unfortunately, the American electorate is not that informed, and most of their news sources are mainstream and influenced by special interests."
Yet the Joe-Sixpacks of the world are a step ahead of the intellectuals as they are smart enough to know concerning themselves with things governmental/political is a waste of time.
Because no matter how much KVH and others talk of the utopian qualities of a leftist country, Joe knows Washington is bought and paid for. Mr. Sixpack's place in the caste is set in stone and Joe's gonna make the best of it.
Are you ready for some football!!!!
Posted by bleedingheart at 08/25/2008 @ 10:37pm
Worse yet, is that Obama (who I will be voting for against McCain) has the perennially wrong Michael McFaul as his chief advisor on Russia. Very dangerous given our turbulent times….
Posted by jsommers at 08/25/2008 @ 10:52pm
To Libraridan, Steve C., ElyDog, montanadon, and others who may be new to the Nation's comments section.
I have never been able to discern any reason for constantly trolling a hostile site other than to annoy other posters to the point that they stop contributing.
This used to be an interesting comments section, and can be again. Encourage all your progressive/liberal friends to visit the site, ignore the most annoying asswipes, and contribute their thoughts.
Even the most contrarian among us who bother to engage the winger jerk-offs and hyper-libertarians are likely to prefer bouncing their ideas off other thoughtful progressives.
Posted by drhammer at 08/26/2008 @ 10:57am
The Democrats are so blatantly phony on the most important social and foreuign policy issues.
I am a leftist, not beholden to the Democratic Party which is nothing but a corporate whore entity.
Hillary is still crying and the pick of Joe Biden does nothing to bring about "real change" but, more of the same. This is the "election of our lifetime," my ass. Both political parties care about one thing---MONEY and Corporations.
Have a good day and keep rooting for the losing-spineless Democrats.
Posted by mercurysun1 at 08/27/2008 @ 11:18am
Bravo Katrina, good to see the truth about Biden's "experience."
Biden is often wrong: he supported the Iraq war before Bush did and provided Bush with every penny of funding requested. Re Iraq he as Chair of the Foreign Relations Committee he put on phony hearings where only pro-war viewpoints were heard. He would not allow weapons inspectors, former military officers or top foreign policy academics who opposed the war testify.
He supported Clinton's war in the Balkans. He has been an ardent supporter of Israel describing himself as a Zionist. He approved Israel's destruction of Lebanon's infrastructure. As one progressive advocate said -- only Lieberman could have been worse. And, he has been very critical of the recently elected progressive leaders in Latin America -- finally governments for the people and he's calling them anti-democratic!
His other area of experience is the Judiciary Committee where as chair he passed the worst drug legislation in history: mandatory minimum sentences, the racially unfair crack and powder cocaine sentencing dispartiy. He created the drug czar's office and tried to criminalize Rave dance parties. Pick a drug law you don't like from the last 25 years and thank Sen. Biden. Joe Biden deserves a lot of the credit for the U.S. with 5% of the world's population having 25% of the world's prisoners.
Add to the list the MBNA bankruptcy law, the Patriot Act, reducing net privacy and ending net neutrality and you have a candidate that embodies much that needs to be changed in Washington -- everything that Obama implies he is going to change is represented by Biden.
Kevin Zeese www.VotersForPeace.US www.TrueVote.US www.csdp.org
Posted by kzeese at 08/27/2008 @ 7:16pm
Good to hear from you, Kevin.
I encourage all the visitors to this site to learn more about/from Kevin Zeese.
He was a patriot before magnetic ribbons were even invented.
Posted by drhammer at 08/28/2008 @ 08:25am
Biden has been wrong on NATA and Georgia. I am no fan of Russia, but put ourselves in their place and think of our reaction to Russia signing a military treaty with Mexico.
Katrina is right.
Posted by maxfieldj at 08/29/2008 @ 11:25am